Submitted by Salissou Danniger (not verified) on Fri, 20/11/2009 - 13:56.
La logique est bien en train de se dessiner dans la marche de l'OTAN. Née au temps de la guerre froide, l'organisation a senti la nécessité d'aller au delà d'une adapatation c'est-à-dire vers une transformation. La documentation que nous lisons ainsi que des conférences animées par des voix autorisées de l'OTAN nous le rappellent.
Une telle "métamorphose" a effectivement besoin de concrétisation; ce qui à mon avis se traduit par la recherche et/ou 'affinement d'un nouveau concept stratégique en phase avec les nouveaux défis planétaires.
Le nouvel élan dont fait état le SG est donc une étape logique du processus qui est en cours. Ce nouveau souffle requiert sans doute l'apport de toutes les intelligences sans doute jamais mobilisées jusque-là compte tenu des viscissitudes que présentent les terrains des opérations dont l'Afghanistan est l'exemple le plus patent (et le plus cruel).
A la lecture du commentaire de Provincial View, il saute aux yeux des problèmes profonds dans la conduite des opérations qui vont de la conception des opérations (stratégie) à leur mise en oeuvre sur le terrain (tactique). Autant ces difficultés sont réelles, autant leurs solutions ne viendront pas des équipes et des armes d'hier qui semblent alors toucher leurs limites.
Ces observations me paraissent être des éléments dont sûrement le SG est conscient et qui ont en partie motivé son speech "A new momentum".
Ceci m'amène enfin à soutenir qu'il faut un véritable reliftage des méthodes de l'OTAN car les défis sont nombreux et à la lumière du post de Provincial View, je dirai que l'efficacité attendue dans une opération comme l'ISAF est prise en otage par des pratiques de ceux qui doivent la conduire
Submitted by defencedebates (not verified) on Fri, 20/11/2009 - 12:03.
This mission is confident for the future, new eforts are made there, and after all Nato mission it's just for creating a clear road for local security to take over,that's why ISAF exists also.
Nato should select better personnel, I agree with that.
ps.the russian example it's not relevant for Nato, we can't compare a western strategy with one who ends at experimental trying.
Submitted by Xaliq Mustafayev (not verified) on Thu, 19/11/2009 - 22:31.
Xaliq.Mustafayev.AZE@gmail.com
I respect this organisation and I highly appreciate high combat training of staff NАТО.This organisation for today unique real force in struggle against world terrorism and protection of the rights of a backgammon. Therefore it is impossible to spoil authority of the NATO, it is necessary to ennoble and support fair mission of the NATO.
Submitted by Xaliq Mustafayev (not verified) on Thu, 19/11/2009 - 22:08.
Xaliq.Mustafayev.AZE@gmail.com
The NATO is obliged to finish the begun action. I am assured the NATO will achieve a victory in Afghanistan and will give to the Afghani people peaceful co-existence.
The NATO the new impulse in Afghanistan is necessary, it is necessary to reconsider all and along with operations to accept a number of additional measures. Also it is not necessary to shoulder all omissions of military men. Afghanistan the specific country and one peace-making activity of the NATO here a little, carrying out of some complex actions is necessary.
In these complex actions it is necessary to involve many various public organisations and also religious figures as at present in Afghanistan it is necessary to start to spend ideological work. Ideological work will necessarily add NATO actions.
And it is necessary to concern it seriously. It is necessary to help for military men to finish their fair mission, it is impossible to suppose the NATO tightening all further in the Afghani bog.
The NATO staff well copes with the problem put before them and thanks the NATO management for high professionalism are necessary to tell.
Submitted by France01100 (not verified) on Thu, 19/11/2009 - 22:00.
En tant que citoyen Espagnol j'approuve ce tournant que prévoit le Secrétaire Général de l'OTAN et espère qu'à l'effort annoncé par le Japon ainsi qu'à ce nouvel élan que prévoit l'UE viendront s'ajouter celui d'autres pays. Il tient à chacun d'entre nous d'exercer une position d'appui aux effort entrepris en Afganistan par l'OTAN afin de gagner la Paix. Ces messages du Secrétaire Général exercent un rapprochement nécéssaire avec les citoyens que nous sommes. "Thank You", Merci.
Submitted by Provincial View (not verified) on Thu, 19/11/2009 - 17:01.
Are we dumb or what? What Momentum? Afghanistan is a lost cause if there is no chance for transparency and rule of the Law…if the poppy fields are not burned down, and the traffickers killed one by one…if the merchants of death are left alone while transferring guns and ammo. More than that, NATO helped the electoral element of this new “democracy” in a shady way, without any real sign of true imagination, or “intelligence” from his civilian and military personnel. The things are not under control (as the Russians couldn’t handle it themselves back in 1979) and the request for auxiliary military forces shows that the bleeding is so massive that you need a full throttle grip on the situation (the Russians did that also!!!) in order to save the appearances.
I love NATO; I know the role it played in us getting rid of those “Commi busters”… but I can’t accept these untruthful and irresponsible actions that are going on the battle fields, actions that cost us dearly on a long term. I can’t stand anymore lies as those of the Cold War ‘puppeteers’ that lead us blind through our own history!!!
You need good military leaders and smart military personnel not the ‘mocking birds’ you send over there… You need real combatant forces not ‘smarty pants’ exploring new horizons, gathering new stars and taking some money for a lousy done job. This is a sad occupation war and you need ‘dogs’, you need hard and smart personnel, and you need a better recruiting and training supervision inside the military establishments of your member states.
I see the recruiting processes in my country and the status of our military as a part of my interest for common European security and I am amazed that there are not even more deaths over there, confronting a well prepared (for that landscape) and religious driven enemy. I see my Romanian soldiers ready to bribe some high ranking officials only for a spot on the next ‘trip’ (friends in the military say that if you know the right person you go there for 3-5000 euro!!!), and if you listen to their commanders you can hear only proud talking and fantastic developments in the armed forces. Our ‘super-soldiers’ are cut out of cardboard and are borrowing equipment from the American soldiers in order to complete their duties, many of them are dumb as dirt and joined the army as a last chance of making something of their lives (even that by bribing, or family connections). I see also the western ‘teens’, sent on the spot by western democracies, they may look tough on the outside but they aren’t smart enough, or old enough for a ‘counter-guerilla’ war…
NATO should select better personnel and ask the same thing from those that lead our countries. A good selection process should view the ‘recruit’ from all the ontological (psychological, ethical and social) aspects of his previous development, and take it from there. A good soldier is ‘created’ in minimum 3 years out of good material, but with lame individuals you won’t get far even in 5 years … Yet, the soldiers you send there should be “la crème de la crème”, not some unknowing kids that grow tired in a few weeks (during a nerve stretching siege)…or individuals that had previous ethical and psychological problems. (And the recent events in that US Army fort tell as for the ‘n’ time the true face of the story!!!)
One could only wonder what the social price is in a western democracy, in a social establishment used with good living and safety standards, when sons and daughters return home in closed caskets, or the thoughts that pass trough the minds of soldiers afraid to die because they are the only supporters of their families. We are not barbarians, though some of us prove sociopathic tendencies under pressure, yet those that (in their minds and religious beliefs) are fighting for their land and their way of seeing the world are capable of gruesome massacres even in the midst of their own communities. We are fighting a fearless and hard enemy, and we must use real human intelligence (not that James Bond crap!) in dealing with the backward rural communities that support terrorists, out of sympathy or fear.
After the military ‘Mjöllnir’ hit Afghanistan the strategy should have changed… Instead of confronting terrorist cells on their own term and on their own territory ISAF should have implied the best siege tactics: cut of their war supplies (even trough the rough terrain the satellites could spot strange movements, were the intricate cave system opens to the outside world there should be suspicious activities), establishing well supplied police check points, establishing food and medical support for the civilian population (without asking to betray at first), approaching true Islamic religious leaders in a respectful manner (not the former agents of God knows who), etc., etc.
I love the idea of NATO… but I dream of a powerful organization that could put some pressure on the member states, not this UN like bazaar where anyone wants to trade but forgets to cooperate, enjoys only the bitter fruits of war instead of truly acting according to the needs of a peculiar situation. I hate the web of lies that permits only political and country driven propaganda in detriment of the actual facts (I feel like in Communism when our leaders fantasized in amplifying the richness of our industrial and agricultural achievements at absurd numbers). Without enhanced cooperation and without truth this alliance is doomed to a marginal role in the history of men, the role of helping Capitalism defeat Communism…
Submitted by Mihail Naydenov (not verified) on Thu, 19/11/2009 - 13:20.
The SG rightly pointed out the need to "sustain the new momentum". However, the intention to push hard for more troops and more resources today is being compromised by the trend towards serious cuts in defense budget, given the current economic recession. This is especially true for some of the NATO countries, which are being severely hit by the world economy slowdown.
I think that sustaining the necessary level of resource commitment for defense and hence for the NATO operations and missions would be one of the key challenges to overcome in the next year.
On the other hand, the present crisis could be seen also as an opprrtunity by adding momentum to the recognition of the need for broader and deeper defense industrial and procurement co-operation.
Submitted by poolly (not verified) on Wed, 18/11/2009 - 21:12.
This is verry good to hear.
And we are verry thankfully regarding to japan of the 5 biljion fund 4 afganistan, for the support,my son and i smiled because of it.
With best all good wishes from us both Jeremy and Lya
Submitted by Kaarlo Suotamo (not verified) on Wed, 18/11/2009 - 20:30.
One can only fully support Nato efforts in Afganistan. It should be seen as prime effort to block the assymmetric war used by the terrorist and to achieve mutual projects with the the tribal society. The drug busines has been essential to them so Natos task is to help them to find new ways to earn. That is the difficult one. Maybe a lot of help from the sience and industrial world is needed.
Comments
I admire NATO for having the
I admire NATO for having the courage of its convictions.
There are no easy solutions in any conflict, whether armed or not.
But we cannot always take the easy route.
Persevere, even when others want to back down!!!
La logique est bien en train
La logique est bien en train de se dessiner dans la marche de l'OTAN. Née au temps de la guerre froide, l'organisation a senti la nécessité d'aller au delà d'une adapatation c'est-à-dire vers une transformation. La documentation que nous lisons ainsi que des conférences animées par des voix autorisées de l'OTAN nous le rappellent.
Une telle "métamorphose" a effectivement besoin de concrétisation; ce qui à mon avis se traduit par la recherche et/ou 'affinement d'un nouveau concept stratégique en phase avec les nouveaux défis planétaires.
Le nouvel élan dont fait état le SG est donc une étape logique du processus qui est en cours. Ce nouveau souffle requiert sans doute l'apport de toutes les intelligences sans doute jamais mobilisées jusque-là compte tenu des viscissitudes que présentent les terrains des opérations dont l'Afghanistan est l'exemple le plus patent (et le plus cruel).
A la lecture du commentaire de Provincial View, il saute aux yeux des problèmes profonds dans la conduite des opérations qui vont de la conception des opérations (stratégie) à leur mise en oeuvre sur le terrain (tactique). Autant ces difficultés sont réelles, autant leurs solutions ne viendront pas des équipes et des armes d'hier qui semblent alors toucher leurs limites.
Ces observations me paraissent être des éléments dont sûrement le SG est conscient et qui ont en partie motivé son speech "A new momentum".
Ceci m'amène enfin à soutenir qu'il faut un véritable reliftage des méthodes de l'OTAN car les défis sont nombreux et à la lumière du post de Provincial View, je dirai que l'efficacité attendue dans une opération comme l'ISAF est prise en otage par des pratiques de ceux qui doivent la conduire
This mission is confident for
This mission is confident for the future, new eforts are made there, and after all Nato mission it's just for creating a clear road for local security to take over,that's why ISAF exists also.
Nato should select better personnel, I agree with that.
ps.the russian example it's not relevant for Nato, we can't compare a western strategy with one who ends at experimental trying.
Xaliq.Mustafayev.AZE@gmail.co
Xaliq.Mustafayev.AZE@gmail.com
I respect this organisation and I highly appreciate high combat training of staff NАТО.This organisation for today unique real force in struggle against world terrorism and protection of the rights of a backgammon. Therefore it is impossible to spoil authority of the NATO, it is necessary to ennoble and support fair mission of the NATO.
Xaliq.Mustafayev.AZE@gmail.co
Xaliq.Mustafayev.AZE@gmail.com
The NATO is obliged to finish the begun action. I am assured the NATO will achieve a victory in Afghanistan and will give to the Afghani people peaceful co-existence.
The NATO the new impulse in Afghanistan is necessary, it is necessary to reconsider all and along with operations to accept a number of additional measures. Also it is not necessary to shoulder all omissions of military men. Afghanistan the specific country and one peace-making activity of the NATO here a little, carrying out of some complex actions is necessary.
In these complex actions it is necessary to involve many various public organisations and also religious figures as at present in Afghanistan it is necessary to start to spend ideological work. Ideological work will necessarily add NATO actions.
And it is necessary to concern it seriously. It is necessary to help for military men to finish their fair mission, it is impossible to suppose the NATO tightening all further in the Afghani bog.
The NATO staff well copes with the problem put before them and thanks the NATO management for high professionalism are necessary to tell.
En tant que citoyen Espagnol
En tant que citoyen Espagnol j'approuve ce tournant que prévoit le Secrétaire Général de l'OTAN et espère qu'à l'effort annoncé par le Japon ainsi qu'à ce nouvel élan que prévoit l'UE viendront s'ajouter celui d'autres pays. Il tient à chacun d'entre nous d'exercer une position d'appui aux effort entrepris en Afganistan par l'OTAN afin de gagner la Paix. Ces messages du Secrétaire Général exercent un rapprochement nécéssaire avec les citoyens que nous sommes. "Thank You", Merci.
Are we dumb or what? What
Are we dumb or what? What Momentum? Afghanistan is a lost cause if there is no chance for transparency and rule of the Law…if the poppy fields are not burned down, and the traffickers killed one by one…if the merchants of death are left alone while transferring guns and ammo. More than that, NATO helped the electoral element of this new “democracy” in a shady way, without any real sign of true imagination, or “intelligence” from his civilian and military personnel. The things are not under control (as the Russians couldn’t handle it themselves back in 1979) and the request for auxiliary military forces shows that the bleeding is so massive that you need a full throttle grip on the situation (the Russians did that also!!!) in order to save the appearances.
I love NATO; I know the role it played in us getting rid of those “Commi busters”… but I can’t accept these untruthful and irresponsible actions that are going on the battle fields, actions that cost us dearly on a long term. I can’t stand anymore lies as those of the Cold War ‘puppeteers’ that lead us blind through our own history!!!
You need good military leaders and smart military personnel not the ‘mocking birds’ you send over there… You need real combatant forces not ‘smarty pants’ exploring new horizons, gathering new stars and taking some money for a lousy done job. This is a sad occupation war and you need ‘dogs’, you need hard and smart personnel, and you need a better recruiting and training supervision inside the military establishments of your member states.
I see the recruiting processes in my country and the status of our military as a part of my interest for common European security and I am amazed that there are not even more deaths over there, confronting a well prepared (for that landscape) and religious driven enemy. I see my Romanian soldiers ready to bribe some high ranking officials only for a spot on the next ‘trip’ (friends in the military say that if you know the right person you go there for 3-5000 euro!!!), and if you listen to their commanders you can hear only proud talking and fantastic developments in the armed forces. Our ‘super-soldiers’ are cut out of cardboard and are borrowing equipment from the American soldiers in order to complete their duties, many of them are dumb as dirt and joined the army as a last chance of making something of their lives (even that by bribing, or family connections). I see also the western ‘teens’, sent on the spot by western democracies, they may look tough on the outside but they aren’t smart enough, or old enough for a ‘counter-guerilla’ war…
NATO should select better personnel and ask the same thing from those that lead our countries. A good selection process should view the ‘recruit’ from all the ontological (psychological, ethical and social) aspects of his previous development, and take it from there. A good soldier is ‘created’ in minimum 3 years out of good material, but with lame individuals you won’t get far even in 5 years … Yet, the soldiers you send there should be “la crème de la crème”, not some unknowing kids that grow tired in a few weeks (during a nerve stretching siege)…or individuals that had previous ethical and psychological problems. (And the recent events in that US Army fort tell as for the ‘n’ time the true face of the story!!!)
One could only wonder what the social price is in a western democracy, in a social establishment used with good living and safety standards, when sons and daughters return home in closed caskets, or the thoughts that pass trough the minds of soldiers afraid to die because they are the only supporters of their families. We are not barbarians, though some of us prove sociopathic tendencies under pressure, yet those that (in their minds and religious beliefs) are fighting for their land and their way of seeing the world are capable of gruesome massacres even in the midst of their own communities. We are fighting a fearless and hard enemy, and we must use real human intelligence (not that James Bond crap!) in dealing with the backward rural communities that support terrorists, out of sympathy or fear.
After the military ‘Mjöllnir’ hit Afghanistan the strategy should have changed… Instead of confronting terrorist cells on their own term and on their own territory ISAF should have implied the best siege tactics: cut of their war supplies (even trough the rough terrain the satellites could spot strange movements, were the intricate cave system opens to the outside world there should be suspicious activities), establishing well supplied police check points, establishing food and medical support for the civilian population (without asking to betray at first), approaching true Islamic religious leaders in a respectful manner (not the former agents of God knows who), etc., etc.
I love the idea of NATO… but I dream of a powerful organization that could put some pressure on the member states, not this UN like bazaar where anyone wants to trade but forgets to cooperate, enjoys only the bitter fruits of war instead of truly acting according to the needs of a peculiar situation. I hate the web of lies that permits only political and country driven propaganda in detriment of the actual facts (I feel like in Communism when our leaders fantasized in amplifying the richness of our industrial and agricultural achievements at absurd numbers). Without enhanced cooperation and without truth this alliance is doomed to a marginal role in the history of men, the role of helping Capitalism defeat Communism…
The SG rightly pointed out
The SG rightly pointed out the need to "sustain the new momentum". However, the intention to push hard for more troops and more resources today is being compromised by the trend towards serious cuts in defense budget, given the current economic recession. This is especially true for some of the NATO countries, which are being severely hit by the world economy slowdown.
I think that sustaining the necessary level of resource commitment for defense and hence for the NATO operations and missions would be one of the key challenges to overcome in the next year.
On the other hand, the present crisis could be seen also as an opprrtunity by adding momentum to the recognition of the need for broader and deeper defense industrial and procurement co-operation.
This is verry good to
This is verry good to hear.
And we are verry thankfully regarding to japan of the 5 biljion fund 4 afganistan, for the support,my son and i smiled because of it.
With best all good wishes from us both Jeremy and Lya
Thank you all
One can only fully support
One can only fully support Nato efforts in Afganistan. It should be seen as prime effort to block the assymmetric war used by the terrorist and to achieve mutual projects with the the tribal society. The drug busines has been essential to them so Natos task is to help them to find new ways to earn. That is the difficult one. Maybe a lot of help from the sience and industrial world is needed.
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